Sylvain Debaisieux : Can you tell me about you ? Where do you come from and what brought you to Brussels ?
Tao Yu : I was studying in China, in the south, next to Hong Kong. I come from a big city called Guangzhou [Canton], it’s around 20 million people. I studied there in the Conservatory, in jazz. There were two teachers that graduated from Belgium, from the Brussels conservatory. When I was studying in China they started to teach there.
SD : They are from Belgium ?
TY : No, they’re Chinese, they studied in Brussels and went back to live there.
SD : Is it the only conservatory in Guangzhou ?
TY : Yes. There are nine conservatories in China, like universities, really huge. This one is a really good one.
SD : You started studying there, already playing the saxophone ?
TY : Yes. I have played the saxophone since high school.
SD : Why the saxophone ?
TY : Because it was cool (laughs) ! I saw people playing in high school. We had music lessons in the afternoon. We learned theory and opera.
SD: Interesting ! And music instruments too ?
TY : Yes, there’s a kind of contract, with teachers from the big city coming to my town every week. It’s about 80 kilometers away. So I took saxophone lessons at school.
SD : Then you decided to continue playing music and went to the conservatory. Did you finish your studies there?
TY : Yes, it was four years. After that, I didn’t want to work directly. I wanted to study more because I didn’t feel I was good enough to be a professional.
SD : So you graduated there and decided to come to Brussels. Was it because of those two teachers?
TY : Yes, but there were a lot of options. The United States, the Netherlands, France… But this one was the easiest because of the English test and the tuition fees.
SD : If you go to the United States, it’s very expensive. Have you tried to get into other conservatories or just this one?
TY : Only this one, it’s the only country where I didn’t have to take an English test. People here speak French and Dutch, so they don’t have the power to ask you to take an English test !
SD : And in Holland, they do?
TY : Yes, they do.
SD : But your English is pretty good!
TY : No! I needed at least a year’s training and the tuition fees were very high. I learned a bit of English at school, but I’ve never really spoken it before. We still have to pass an English exam to get the visa. We have to go to Beijing, to the German embassy.
SD : But that’s a long way from the south of China ! About 2000 km? So you have to fly to take an English exam to get your visa to come here?
TY : Yes. The procedure is really difficult. It took me about five months to get the visa.
SD : But you already knew you’d been accepted in the conservatory ?
TY : Yes.
SD : So you first got a tourist visa to come to Belgium, did the entry exam, and then back in China when you got the answer, you spent five months doing the visa?
TY : Yes, all that!
SD : I suppose that’s a lot of money too?
TY : A lot. And during the English test, they asked me questions about the lessons I was going to have at the conservatory… Something like «Can you tell me about the blues, the history of jazz?»
SD : They wanted to make sure you were a real student, and not leaving the country for any other reason?
TY : Yes.
SD : Did you know anyone living in Brussels ?
TY : There was a good friend of mine, a double bass player. He arrived here a year before I did. He helped me find an apartment and everything.
SD : So when you arrived in Brussels, you had to pay the tuition fee, which is quite expensive.
TY : For non-Europeans, it’s around 7000€. That’s more than in France or the Netherlands. But I really like the style and openness of the music here at the KCB [flemish conservatory of Brussels]. The people are really nice.
SD : And your friend helped you find the apartment?
TY : Yes, and he also paid for us at the beginning, because it’s really difficult to transfer Chinese money into euros, it takes a long time.
SD : Even if you have the money?
TY : You have to justify it. We can’t take much cash, it’s limited.
SD : And when you arrived at the conservatory, did it help you to meet other musicians quickly?
TY : No. Nobody helped me. I didn’t know anyone. There’s no welcome party in the jazz department.
SD : So you were a bit lost? And the conservatory doesn’t have any advisors or people who can help you?
TY : : I think there are some, but no one has really come to help the students in the jazz department get to know each other.
SD : So the first few months in Brussels were really difficult?
TY : Yes, and I couldn’t really understand what people were saying. People have their own accents and my English wasn’t very good.
SD : So it was difficult for you to meet other students and locals?
TY : Yes, and then I lived with my friend and we often stayed together, so I’d go straight home after class.
SD : So you were a bit stuck…
TY : It’s also because it’s so different. There’s nothing similar, the culture, everything… In the beginning, my friend organized sessions for us, so I started playing with people from the conservatory. At first, I didn’t understand what was going on musically. You know, I was in bachelor’s studies…
SD : Didn’t your Chinese diploma count?
TY : Yes, but the teachers suggested I do two more years of Bachelor’s to make sure I had enough time to practice.
SD : So you did a few sessions but didn’t know anyone? It’s a different scene, a different way of playing music?
TY : Yes, and I was very shy. In China, we never do student sessions. People think we’re all bad and we don’t want to share that.
SD : Wow!
TY : I guess it’s because of the region. People in southern China are more shy, and those in the north are more open-minded… But things have changed over the last two years at the conservatory. Thanks to Raphaël [Aurand] and me. He was on the jazz department’s student council, and I suggested that we talk about this problem. Let them have meetings. And they started organizing things.
SD : That’s good. Did you also go to jam sessions?
TY : No. When I arrived, the covid pandemic started. I arrived in September 2019 and Covid arrived in March 2020.
SD : That’s tough! Have you been in Belgium all this time? I imagine it was difficult?
TY : Yes, but it was better to be in Belgium than in China! Then I broke up with my boyfriend and started hanging out with more European friends.
SD : Did you still have your visa to study?
TY: I had to renew it every year. We have to pay a lot. Tuition fees and the deposit. Do you know about the deposit?
SD : No, I don’t.
TY : You have to prove that you have enough money to stay in Belgium. There are two ways : the first is to show your parents’ income and the other is to pay twelve months’ living expenses in advance at the beginning of the year at the conservatory. The conservatory then sends a letter of guarantee to the commune. The first year, it was around 7000€. This year, it’s 9500€…
SD : So you have to pay the tuition fees plus the €9500 deposit… And then they give it back to you every month?
TY : Yes, but it’s still a lot at the beginning. This year I’m no longer a student because I’ve finished the conservatory, but I still have to give the deposit to the school and they keep giving a letter. It only works for a year, then I have to find another solution.
SD : Okay. So after Covid, you started going to jam sessions?
TY : Yes, and hanging out with other friends. Taiwanese and French guys from the conservatory. I hung out a lot with Yo Hes. He pushed me to go to jam sessions. I was very shy at first, but I got used to it!
SD : That’s where I met you, I think, at a jam session in Muntpunt. There was also Sounds, Music Village…
TY : I met a lot of people there.
SD : So you’ve only recently arrived in Belgium, and finished your studies last year?
TY : Yes, I just finished.
SD : Did you feel welcome at the jam sessions? Did it help to be in a community of musicians?
TY : Yes, they’re really welcoming. I don’t know if they welcome me because I’m a girl, a cute Asian girl, and that make some of them happy to see me…I know guys who’ve been to jam sessions and it wasn’t the same as for me.
SD : Jazz is a very masculine environment.
TY : Yes, it’s true! I once saw another girl open a jam session, and I felt the difference. People treat us differently. When we went on stage, people were already saying: « come on! »
SD : Do you feel it positively or negatively?
TY : Most of the time, it’s positive!
SD : Do you feel more supported?
TY : Yes. People come up to us and say: «You played well!» The audience is really nice.
SD : Do you feel discriminated against?
TY : No, it’s a good thing.
SD : Okay. And do you also feel any difference because you’re not Belgian? That people would receive you differently if you were Belgian?
TY : I don’t think so.
SD : There’s a large Asian community at KCB, mainly Taiwanese and Chinese students. I think it’s really nice. It’s really international. But most of them don’t stay in Belgium, they leave after their studies. I wonder why. Are there no opportunities, is it too difficult to stay here?
TY : Yes, it’s too difficult for the visa. In particular, if you want to get Belgian nationality, you have to stay here for five years. But they don’t count the years as a student anymore. They used to count two years of study as one normal year. So after ten years of study, you could apply for nationality. But they recently changed this law and now it doesn’t count anymore. Today, I’ve just finished my studies in Brussels after four years, and this year is considered my first year in Belgium. So it’s really too hard.
SD : It’s a political question.
TY : I thought I could study for 8 years and work for 2. But that’s changed.
SD : I was talking about it with some other friends, and the solution they came up with was…
TY : Find a girlfriend or a boyfriend…
SD : Yes. In their case, it’s a « real » thing, they get married or cohabit legally. It feels like the only way.
TY : It’s the easiest way. I thought about it and found a boyfriend while I was studying. But I don’t want to do that, I don’t want to marry him!
SD : Besides, even if you get married, you have to stay with the person, so you’re dependent!
TY : I don’t want that, I want more freedom.
SD : So now you’ve finished your studies, and you can stay another year because you’ve got your master’s degree? And then you don’t know?
TY : That’s it. I need to find a job as a musician, but that’s not possible.
SD : Even as a Belgian, with a master’s degree in jazz, I can’t find a full-time job.
TY : That’s also why I know how difficult it is for everyone, and I really ask myself: « Should I stay or should I go back? ».
SD : And what’s the situation in China? If you go back, will you have any teaching opportunities?
TY : Yes, I can become a teacher. And there are also lots of opportunities to record TV shows, music shows and idol concerts. You play for famous singers, you make a lot of money touring with them. And there aren’t many jazz musicians, so it’s easier.
SD : Do you have more opportunities to play as a jazz musician?
TY : Yes.
SD : But the scene is different from Europe?
TY : There are fewer good musicians. But more and more, Chinese musicians who have studied abroad are coming back, so the level is improving.
SD : Have you already given a few concerts in Belgium? Is it difficult to become a professional in Belgium? Do you think it’s more difficult as a foreigner?
TY : I was very happy to play here. The musicians are so good, and the audience is so supportive. Right now, it’s hard to find gigs. I don’t have a professional record yet to look for gigs. I can’t wait to play here. That’s why I stayed.
SD : So now you want to be part of the professional scene.
TY : Yes, I also think there are a lot of places to play here. Once I have my album, it’ll be easier. Some of the people I’ve contacted, I know them and I’ve sent them videos, but they want something more professional.
SD : You’ve already contacted a few people and you’ve got some replies?
TY : The big venues aren’t responding. Or I don’t know who to contact.
SD : I think it’s difficult for a lot of musicians to get a response from them. But you’re confident that when you get your album, everything will go smoothly?
TY : Yes, I feel it’s fairer here. People are more open-minded.
SD : In Brussels, or all over the country?
TY : In Brussels. I don’t know about the rest of the country. I just know that they have more money in Flanders, that they pay better. But there’s the language problem. I know Shoko [Igarashi], she’s doing well! So if I do something right, it should be fine!
SD : OK.
TY : In China, the relationship between teachers and students at the conservatory is really different from here. The teachers are famous and they have lots of concert opportunities. But since they don’t have time to do everything, they give us concerts. So most of the concert opportunities I’ve had over there have come from my teachers.
SD : So, in China, you’ve already had a lot of concert opportunities?
TY : A lot.
SD : And here you haven’t had as much help from teachers, as you had in China?
TY : Not really. They give us advice, but I have to do everything myself. The only one who has helped me directly is Diederik [Wissels], thanks to him I was able to record at Jet Studio!
SD : Cool! So you recorded with your band?
TY : Yes, last year, as a quartet. But it has to be a demo, it’s not an album.
SD : Okay. Do you think that because you’re not from around here, it’s harder for you to find gigs?
TY : Of course.
SD : And what’s the main reason for that? Is it because you’re new to the city?
TY :Yes, I think at first it’s because I don’t know the programmers. I think if I meet them and we become friends, it’ll be like everyone else.
SD : So, do you already feel a difference after a few years in Belgium?
TY : For some clubs, yes. Not all clubs, but in some places, when I ask for a gig they give me one.
SD : But they’re not often well-paid concerts? It’s not like you can make a living from these gigs?
TY : No.
SD : Do you ever play well-paid gigs in Belgium?
TY :Never. I don’t know the right people.
SD : So it seems that it’s not so difficult to play in all the small clubs, but when you want to get well-paid gigs it’s really difficult, especially for foreigners.
TY : That’s right.
SD :Have you ever felt racism in the musical environment?
TY : Just jokes between friends. For example, when there’s a pop song, a friend says it’s Chinese pop! That sort of thing.
SD :But nothing that’s really affected you in a negative way?
TY : No, I think the musicians here are very nice.
SD :I suppose it’s also because Brussels is very cosmopolitan. I’m not sure if it’s the same in other cities?
TY : I went to Antwerp, which was cool, very nice. In Paris, I went to jam sessions, and the atmosphere was really strange. After playing, no one was talking to each other. People aren’t curious, they don’t care who you are, they just keep to themselves.
SD : Paris can be a very egocentric city! And do you have any Chinese friends who have been to countries other than Belgium? Is it different for them?
TY : Yes, but I don’t know them very well, so I haven’t asked them. However, they’ve been to several jam sessions in Brussels, and they’ve told me that people say bad things about other musicians…
SD : That’s sometimes a problem in the jazz world. People tend to judge each other. Do you feel that way? Do people ever say bad things about you?
TY : I can’t hear what they’re saying while I’m playing! But in general, when I play well, people come up to me afterwards to tell me I’ve played well, and when I play badly, nobody says anything (laughs).
SD : That’s very typical ! So, when you arrived, did you receive any help from the government when you arrived?
TY : I got help from the conservatory. I proved I couldn’t afford the tuition and they cut the price in half. So I only had to pay 4000€. But I could only apply once. And they don’t talk about it. I had to go and ask. I had to say: «I’m poor, help me!»
SD : Ok. I also wanted to ask you if there is a link between your artistic work and the fact that you come from China? Do you want to separate it?
TY : Some people joke when I play, they say I do Chinese pop! But I don’t!
SD : And you don’t want to bring traditional Chinese music or anything like that into your work?
TY : No, I don’t really want to mix cultures.
SD : Is there an Asian community in Brussels that has helped you?
TY : Not at all! There’s a Facebook group for Chinese people. They answer a few questions about life in Brussels. That’s all there is to it.
SD : So now you’re starting to have friends here, you’re starting to play more and more in Brussels. What are your hopes for the future? Do you want to stay here?
TY : I don’t know. If I stay here, I have to get a job. My friends told me, «If you need a job to support yourself, don’t stay!» I really have to think about it. When I was studying, I could be happy with a little money. But today, everyone reminds me that it doesn’t work like that. Everyone tells me not to stay if I have to get a job for it. So I’m really thinking about it. If I stay here, I’m going to have to spend a lot of money on the deposit.
SD : Do you still have to do that?
TY : Yes, if I don’t get a job this year, I won’t be able to keep my visa, so I’ll continue the conservatory. Then I have to pay the tuition and the deposit.
SD : And if you find a job?
TY : Then it’s okay, I don’t have to pay anything.
SD : And you’ll keep your visa because you’re working. Do you have to renew it every year?
TY : Yes, every year.
SD : So you have to keep your job?
TY :And after 5 years, I can apply for Belgian nationality.
SD : And is there any chance of finding a full-time job like that?
TY : I know a Chinese woman who worked at Inno, in the make-up department. After three years, she applied for nationality, and got it.
SD : And you really want to do that?
TY : No! It’s a full-time job, you don’t have time to play music or anything. I’d rather use this time to go back to China. To be famous there. I know people there, I don’t want to waste the chance. So I plan to do 50/50. Half the time in China, half the time here.
SD :Would you come on a tourist visa?
TY : Maybe.
SD :Can you stay for three months as a tourist?
TY : Normally one month. But there’s another type of visa, which is very difficult to get. If I get it, they offer me five years, and I can come several times for 6 months. But it’s difficult, I have to have a job and a house in China. They make sure I will go back to China.
SD : What is this visa called?
TY : A five-year travel visa.
SD : So right now, it’s really hard to project yourself into the future, you don’t know if you’re going to stay here…
TY : I need a lot of money, and I’m not making any here. So I’ll probably go back in China in February or March and try to find a job. When I’m more stable, I’ll come back here for a few months.
SD : Can I ask you, maybe a stupid question, why do you want to come back here?
TY : Because of the music! It’s so good here.
SD : Is it more interesting here?
TY : Yes, people really focus on music.
SD : You don’t have that in China?
TY : No. In China, they’re really under stress. It’s more difficult. Most musicians have bought a house and they have to pay for it, as well as the car and life. You have to work a lot.
SD :Would you prefer to live here?
TY : I think I’d prefer 50/50. It’s difficult here too, apart from the music. The weather, the food… (laughs)
SD : One last question: if there was one thing to change, what would be the most urgent?
TY :The visa!
SD : Make it easier for non-Europeans to come and live in Belgium?
TY : Yes! Or more concerts for non-Europeans.
SD : More opportunities?
TY : Yes.
SD : Do you have anything else to say?
TY : I don’t know what you’re going to do with these interviews. You want to do a blog, don’t you? Maybe we could show it to the government? And see if they can help or change anything? But I suppose that’s difficult.
SD : The aim is already to make our small community of musicians and the people around us aware of the difficulties you face… To share the experiences, journeys and feelings of foreign musicians arriving in Belgium or living here since a while. Because we never talk about it. For example, if you leave in March and we don’t see you for six months, most people won’t realize that it’s a visa problem, a lack of opportunities for you to stay. I guess it’s the same for a lot of people. So the first step is to start talking about it amongst ourselves. Then, if we’re more aware, we can start sharing these issues, and at some point, it may reach the government. We’re voting this year in Belgium, and honestly, it’s not looking good. They’re closing the borders more and more, as in most European countries. That’s why we have to talk about it. If we don’t, we’ll soon realize that there won’t be as much diversity, including in the music scene. There are also exchange opportunities… For example, if you take your band to China and they find you gigs here, it’s an incredible opportunity!
TY : Maybe I could do that! Invite musicians from here to China.
SD : That would be great ! Ok, I think we are good to go, aren’t we ?
TY : Yes !
SD : Thanks, Tao Yu !
TY : Thank you, Sylvain !